JeanV,
Here is one statement by CTR that might be of interest. He wrote the following in the Watch Tower of December 1, 1912, page 377, “The Ending of the Gentile Times”.
Coming now to a very critical examination of the date 536 B.C., there is an open question: Shall we call it 536 full years to A.D., or 535 full years? The difference in time between October 1st and January 1st would be the fourth of a year; hence our query is respecting 536-1/4 or 535-1/4 years B.C. What is the proper method of calculation, is in dispute. If we count the first year B.C. as 0, then the date 536-1/4 B.C. is the proper one for the end of the seventy years of captivity. But if we begin to reckon it by counting the first year before the Christian era as B.C. 1, then evidently the desolation ended 535-1/4 years B.C.
As to the methods of counting, Encyclopaedia Britannica says, “Astronomers denote the year which preceded the first of our era as 0 and the year previous to that as B.C. 1--the previous year B.C. 2, and so on.”
Whichever of these ways we undertake to calculate the matter the difference between the results is one year. The seventy years of Jewish captivity ended October, 536 B.C., and if there were 536-1/4 years B.C., then to complete the 2,520 years’ cycle of the Times of the Gentiles would require 1913-3/4 years of A.D., or to October, 1914. But if the other way of reckoning were used, then there were but 535-1/4 years of the period B.C., and the remainder of the 2,520 years would reach to A.D., 1914-3/4 years, otherwise October, 1915.
Since this question is agitating the minds of a considerable number of the friends, we have presented it here in some detail. We remind the readers, however, that nothing in the Scriptures says definitely that the trouble upon the Gentiles will be accomplished before the close of the Times of the Gentiles, whether that be October, 1914, or October, 1915.
Doug Mason
JoinedPosts by Doug Mason
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43
607 to 1914 calculation question
by bluebell inis there any culture that actually used years of 360 days length?
if so, surely there would still be some kind of leap year to correct the calendar, why is that not taken into account?
i'd never thought about it when i was a dub because you're not supposed to think!
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Doug Mason
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607 to 1914 calculation question
by bluebell inis there any culture that actually used years of 360 days length?
if so, surely there would still be some kind of leap year to correct the calendar, why is that not taken into account?
i'd never thought about it when i was a dub because you're not supposed to think!
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Doug Mason
Bluebell,
I saw your question as being about nations in general, rather than being limited to the Jewish nation.
One book that might help you is "Handbook of Biblical Chronology" by Jack Finegan, especially pages 29 to 44. If you can't find a copy, write to me.
Doug
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1. I wonder how the loss of days brought about by the change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar affects the WTS's date in 1914? Can anyone tell me the date of Tishri 1 in 1914, according to the Jewish calendar?
2. Another question for me is the use of day=year with "seven times" of Daniel 4, but not with "three and a half times" of Revelation.
3. It is my understanding that the WTS sees the dream of Daniel 4 fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar, and that it is the fulfillment on the king that is the actual prophecy of the "gentile times". Am I wrong?
4. Interestingly, when the WTS changed the date of the Fall from 538 BCE to 539 BCE and the corresponding move of the Destruction of Jerusalem from 606 BCE to 607 BCE, they were so besotted with 1914 that they invented the story that CTR was not aware that there was no "zero year". It is my understanding that Russell was aware of that fact, and while he was prepared to move his expectations from 1914 to 1915, he adamantly held to his 606 BCE date for Jerusalem's destruction. -
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587/607
by reneeisorym ini read this and i don't believe the tablets that prove 587 would disprove the bible.
so can you help me figure out what the bible really says about the fall?.
counting back from that date, and adding up what they have discerned to be the reigns of each king, 605 bce is found to be the first year of mighty king nebuchadnezzar.
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Doug Mason
The Bible does NOT say the Jews returned in 537 BCE. In fact, the Bible gives no dates in terms of the BCE (Julian) calendar. The WTS relies on secular historians for the BCE dates.
The method used by historians to calculate 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon relies on 587 BCE being the date of the Destruction of Jerusalem and it relies on the lengths of reign of the Babylonian kings that the WTS does not accept. So it accepts the conclusion but does not accept the method employed to arrive at that conclusion.
The Bible does not say that the seventy years ended when the Jews returned to Jerusalem. It says the servitude to Babylon ended when Babylon was defeated by the Persians.
But let's go back to the date when the Jews returned -- no one knows which year this happened. The WTS cannot prove that it took place in 537 BCE.
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WT admits they have added to the "Good News" that Jesus preached
by rockhound ini was looking over some of the archives in "the best of" section of jwd and found some very important quotes of the watchtower that may be of use to all.
keep in mind the warning in galations 1: 6-9 .
6 i marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the one who called you with christs undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news.
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Doug Mason
rockhound,
A most excellent post!
In addition, the WTS does not have a clue what Mark, Matthew and Luke mean by "kingdom of Heaven/God". The WTS of course equate it to their "Government by God", which they say is represented on earth solely by them.
They super glue texts that have no relevance to one another, to "prove" that the Kingdom of the synoptic gospels is related to the Council of Acts which is related to the 144,000 of Revelation, and so on.
They just do not have a clue.
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Which calendar do secular sources use?
by Doug Mason ini know that jeremiah used the accession/nisan calendar and that daniel used the accession/tishri calendar.
1. which of these calendars do modern authorities use?
i am thinking of sources such as p&d, neugebauer and weidner.
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Doug Mason
I would like to thank those who helped me with my mental gymnastics relative to the Babylonian calendar and the methods of reckoning used by Jeremiah, Daniel and modern authorities. The following is my current understanding, and I would appreciate corrections and criticisms.
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Page 9 of the “Watchtower” for June 15, 2007 shows a 12-month calendar with the corresponding ancient and modern names of each month. The outer circle of the diagram shows the Babylonian name of each month (Nisan, Elul, Tishri, Chislev, etc.). The names in brackets with some months are the names given by the ancient Jews of about Solomon’s time (925 BCE) (These show that the Jews’ “Ethanim” later became “Tishri”, while “Abib” became “Nisan”; and so on.)
Subsequently, the Jews identified the months with numbers, rather than with names. This meant that some centuries later, a scribe had to insert an explanation that “Ethanim” corresponded to the month they later named the “Seventh month” (September/October).
The Watchtower article refers to the Gezer Calendar, a tablet from about 925 BCE (around the time of Solomon). The first two months mentioned on the tablet correspond to Sept/Oct-Oct/Nov. Such evidences show that the ancient Jews used a calendar starting in Autumn. This is shown by authorities such as Jack Finegan and E. R. Thiele.
While the ancient Jews’ calendar began in Autumn, the people of Mesopotamia developed a calendar that began the year in Spring (Nisan). Over time, the Babylonian’s use of the Nisan (Spring) calendar and the names they gave to the months, such as Nisan and Tishri, found their way into Jewish life and literature.
The Jews employed two calendars side-by-side, the secular calendar that began in Spring (Nisan) and the sacred calendar that began in Autumn (Tishri).
Analysis of their writings shows that Jeremiah employed the secular Nisan /Babylonian calendar while Daniel and Ezra/Nehemiah employed the ancient Jewish and religious Tishri calendar. Daniel thus used the Tishri Calendar when reckoning the first year of Cyrus, the year he issued the Decree permitting the captives to return to their homelands.
From this, I suggest modern authorities would apply the Nisan (Spring) Calendar to the time of the Babylonian Captivity.
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Unscriptural
by RollerDave injust had a lovely chat with my mom today.. after hashing out a bunch of other business, she asked what we were up to this monday.
of course i told her we were going out to see dad.. this gave her pause because she is well aware that dad is rather deceased.
she sputters 'you mean... his grave?
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Doug Mason
While conducting some personal Family History research, I asked a (newly-found) cousin in France for photos of some graves.
She explained that she could not do so during Passover but was later able to send me photos of my Jewish relatives' graves. She was not in the least bit concerned that I am a Christian and had never experienced the Jewish religion of my Viennese parents.
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Have JW's done away with disfellowshipping?
by lostlantern ina friend just said that disfellowshipping is no longer practiced due to legalities, does anyone know if this true?
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Doug Mason
The WTS wrote to me in October 1972, telling me that in view of my questions, they had investigated me. They had decided they would not answer any more correspondence from me and they would recommend that none of their members engage in Scriptural discussions with me.
I was this disfellowshipped before I even thought about associating with them. Is this a record?
I still have the letter.
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Secret book--PDF--(Family Care and Medical Management for JW's!)
by Atlantis in1992 family care and medical management for jehovah's witnesses.
(approx.
85mb) this publication is now unavailable from the watchtower, with no plans for republication.
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Doug Mason
I recently completed a study, available at http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Loyalty_Test.pdf
It will be interesting to read the WTS's "secret" book and see what changes I need to make. Any comments and advice will be most welcome.
Many thanks!
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Where did I find this?
by Doug Mason ini have put a picture at http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/twenty_time_proofs.pdf .
it is a photocopy i made about 30 years ago at the melbourne library.
stupid me never noted the source, and it might have been from ctr or from henninges.
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Doug Mason
I have put a picture at http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Twenty_Time_proofs.pdf
It is a photocopy I made about 30 years ago at the Melbourne Library.
Stupid me never noted the source, and it might have been from CTR or from Henninges.
So I am wondering if anyone can tell me where it comes from and if they are able to provide me with a better copy.
It shows "Twenty Time Proofs for 1914 or 1915" and refers to Watchtowers of the 1890s and 1900s.
Thanks,
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7
Which calendar do secular sources use?
by Doug Mason ini know that jeremiah used the accession/nisan calendar and that daniel used the accession/tishri calendar.
1. which of these calendars do modern authorities use?
i am thinking of sources such as p&d, neugebauer and weidner.
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Doug Mason
I know that Jeremiah used the accession/Nisan calendar and that Daniel used the accession/Tishri calendar.
1. Which of these calendars do modern authorities use? I am thinking of sources such as P&D, Neugebauer and Weidner.
2. Do these authorities use Julian or Gregorian dates?
3. When the WTS says October 1914, do they need to take into account the days "lost" in the changeover to the Gregorian Calendar?
Doug